I posted this in evil dark places in hopes Mythic might glance on it. I'm not happy about it but sadly seems my only recourse at this point.
But I still want all your guys opinions on this since yours is intelligent(generally ) and actually well thought out.
So let's brainstorm!
I think these fixes could help RvR in general(scenarios/Open)
Healers: Receive renown for Shields and Rezzing.
(Perhaps even one for buffing, but that might be a bit much)
Tanks: Need a portion of renown for throwing guard on someone, an opposite mechanic of the Healers where they get renown for healing a damage dealer.
Tanks should get renown for protecting healing players, the higher healers would be the best targets.(also encourages better healers)
Maybe even some renown for snares or Hold the Line!
If others have more suggestions for the tanks I couldn't think of a whole lot but they need to be rewarded for their role and not dealing dmg. Maybe something with dmg mitigation.
All DPS classes: Stay just the way they are. Their role is to do dmg and kill crap. So this system only really works for them.
In the end, whether we need this incentive or not it's there and I think it should be tweaked.
Tanks are suffering badly from being defensive. Dmg and kills are the only way to go so I see alot more tanks going 2hndr just because of that.
Many healers only heal because there is no reward for anything else.
Now I know there are good tanks/healers who do the jobs that don't %26quot;pay%26quot; so we can win.
But I don't think they should get punished for it.
And the system is there already in PQ's for tanks.
We would see alot more sword/board protecting us and many more rezzes and shields on us and survivability for a group would go way up.
And with RDPS getting a buff in the coming patch we really need help on the defensive end, offense will be more than adequate lol.
Plus the ability to be a DPS tank will be harder now since FF will bring you down significantly faster than before.
I guess I will my personal healing POV.
My major incentive is winning, whether winning a scenario or destroying others in ORvR. I hate to lose. From a personal standpoint I can sacrifice a few points to win, and in the end winning gives me more points. So I use whatever tools I have to help keep others alive.
Now reflecting on your statement, to maximize my points as a shaman I can sit and spam Gather Round all day, and then heal those that get too low. I can agree that it would be nice to get points for shielding and rezzing because, especially in scenarios, what is the use when in most cases they will be back in about 20 seconds anyway. Typically my shield, either Don't Feel Nothing or morale Divine Protection I save for when people are dropping to fast for me and I need a second to catch up. I think more renown in these two areas would encourage healers to use more of their abilities.
Hope it helped at all.
Yea Tab in the end you make my ultimate point.
I don't like the carrot on a stick.
But it's in the game and needs a fix, or take it completely out and make it a win/lose bonus.
If you win you all get X, if you lose you all get Y.
Win and lose as a team.
But the current system that rewards little things just makes people only do what rewards them.
And the few of us who play to win get ignored/punished for that.
Sadly, the Wow mentality ruins what are supposed to be nice pats on the back and turns them into %26quot;gimme gimmes%26quot;
I think also actually completing scenario objectives like capturing flags and stuff should reward the person capturing with some renown.
It doesn't have to be a lot but at least a little extra incentive, maybe 100-200 renown. I see this happen in Serpent's Passage a lot. The majority of the group goes in and pushes the opposing side back to their spawn while 1 or 2 people reluctantly capture the salvage part. The people capturing get very little for their troubles except helping everyone get some extra renown/xp for the points at the end. Meanwhile the rest of the group gets significantly more renown farming players.
As a Chosen, I'm satisfied with my current renown gains compared to others. It could be the fact that my renown rank is a bit low right now (RR33) compared to my opponents so my renown gain is still high even though I'm not even doing half the dmg the real DPS are doing and no healing.
I do agree though that they should add renown incentives to defending players. Healers I think are ok but tanks that focus on support rather than DPS probably do need some help.
Upping keep defense renown rewards is another thing they should do. I'm practically useless in keep defense and all I really get is a bit of renown from the rdps kills. Once they breach the doors then it gets interesting but the time before that sucks. I think I recall getting 100 renown every few minutes while the keep is being attacked but that's really nothing.
As it stands now defending a keep is more trouble than it's worth and it's better to let it get taken and take it back for rewards than keeping it.
ahh keep trading. sad that it's coming to that.
But Mythic said they will be adding a defensive PQ to keeps soon......sometime before next year hopefully.
Didn't see it in 1.1 patch notes.
Yea I have been reading that keep and even dreaded city trading is occuring.
Cause you can get epic set gear from a city defense PQ.
I remember all the conversations we use to have about this happening and how we hoped it would never come to pass.
So much for 1 city solving all those problems eh?
In regards to capping, I do not support the idea of personal renown gain. I must admit, that as a shaman, it is generally a bad idea for me to try and get a flag, or powder keg, or what have you. I think individual renown gain for capping would support individual aims and destroy the team concept. Which I guess goes back to Thraks possible original post (by extension of my POV) that those who only do what will get them points can destroy the team environment.
As far as I am concerned, if a few people cap in Serpent's because the rest of team has pushed the others back to their spawn, then your ability to cap is because of those people. No one else is trying to kill you during this process. Therefore it should be a team gain, not an individual one.
The personal renown gain from capping wouldn't be anything great but it would at least encourage people to do so and reward those that do with a little bit to offset the time they take to run that thing and not getting the same renown as those farming kills.
If the reward was too high then yea it would break the team concept but as it is now, the fact there is no reward for capping, aside from points of course, does discourage people to even cap when they can gain much more renown/xp farming kills.
I see your point and yes the team is responsible for helping 1 person cap but during that time the team is gaining much more renown points than the person capping. Does that sound fair to you? Try it out, just be the person capping, see how much renown/xp you get compared to the rest of the team. Again i'm not saying the rewards should be huge but at least something.I would like a little bit extra for taking damage.
I lead the charge
I guard my healer/witchelf depending on where i am
I hold the line to mitigate spells
I break lines and disrupt the enemy
and because i deal negligible damage in the long run, im normally low on the list.
Thankfully, i live long enough that team kills add up to help even out the points get normally, but a badly played tank can score the same as me.Programming for intent is really difficult though in regards to capping let alone coming to an agreement on what is encouraging team work. Take a double flag scenario. Neither side can score while their own flag is not home. The question here is whether or not the flag thief should stay out of combat while they have the flag or not. Some might say that by hiding they are not aiding their team since they are safe, others will say that they are since they are not presenting a target that can be attacked to the enemy. Which behavior do want to encourage? If you reward them a flat rate for the cap then what stops them from being a greedy smirf (or goblin) and attacking the enemy versus attempting to score because they have already been rewarded themselves. Or is it better to reward them for playing it safe and scoring for the team, aka if they enter combat reduce the renown they earn from the kill. Its a tough call, especially if you have a legit fight to get the flag scored. Good thread Thrakus.
Once again coming from a healer I will agree with getting renown for having a guard on a player, say an extra amount % based on what that player received during that time. I know that I have been kept alive many a times based on these mechanisms.
As far as renown for taking damage (as all the IBs step forward and agree), I will have to disagree unless it is very very small because in my mind this encourages silly play by some people. As a shaman I do not want to be taking damage, but lets says we are doing pretty poorly and I want to be selfish I am just going to run into a group time and time again, because it atleast it would be something, right? I am afraid some people would take this mentality too often. Some just weren't meant to take damage. If you implement this only on tanks then there are those that will whine because they can't benefit from taking damage also (most likely melee classes).
In short I appreciate tanks keeping me alive and they should be rewarded for that, after all it helps the greater good. But rewarded for taking damage seems off to me.I do think a small bonus should be given to a capper of any scenario objective.
Like itachi said, nothing gamebreaking that would encourage %26quot;greedy smirfs%26quot;(I like that one) to constantly cap instead of going for kills.
Keep kills tops but give an incentive to make a few people not feel totally like their wasting time capping that objective.
Take this example:
For this experiment one kill = 100(not accurate in game, just for the test)
Make a cap worth 25XP/Renown.
1/4 of a kill and it takes more time plus your still out of the fight.
And this is more than just flags, this is BO's in places like Nord, Deathfist Crater, Holding the temple of isha, grabbing mourkain ball etc,etc.
Just a little doggy biscuit for doing what the whole scenario is meant to do.
Other day I ran Nord as Order and everyone skipped the LH and I didn't notice it till I died.
And then I was the only one who came back and capped it.
Now technically the reward for that is WINNING THE F*ING SCENARIO!
But, it seems that's not enough for some 2d thinkers and in order to force teamwork the %26quot;carrot%26quot; comes out again.
And this is not a slight on you Itachi or anyone else who suggested something like this.
We are not to blame for wanting people to play as a team.
And this whole thread saddens me that we have to have a reward for doing everything in the game.
So
Fun = Items/XP/Renown
Apparently that's it for alot of players.
Again I'll use the comparison.
Do I have to hang a 5 dollar bill over your toilet to get you to take a crap?
It started off as a good intention to give someone a little pat on the back for helping others. A %26quot;good job%26quot; if you will.
But people looked down at their plate and said %26quot;Hey Jimmy has a bigger piece of cake then me! If you don't give me more I'm not eating it.%26quot;
And now we have to talk about stuff like this because Tommy needs a Jimmy size cake, but then Jimmy is gonna be pissed cause Tommy's cake got a huge increase while his stayed the same. That's not fair.
And it's not anyone here at this site.
Go visit VN and you'll see.
And the bad part is Mythic is listening to them.
*sigh* sorry I'll stop.
Anyways, a small boost for cappers would be nice.
And I would agree determining participation is hard to integrate, but they have the framework in PQ's.
When tanks focus more on taunting and defense, they rank high.
When healers heal/rezz/keep people up they rank high.
When dps kills crap, they rank high.
And you know what, if whiny brats get their cake, your damn skippy I'm gonna take a piece of it. (until maybe someone wakes the hell up and says why are we listening to whiners?)
**added note cause Taburz posted under me
No I think each class should have it's own seperate calculation for renown and XP just like PQ's.
Taking dmg is not something you want a caster/healer doing and getting rewarded for lol.
Just reward people for playing the class in all aspects.
Sure you still get rewards for doing dmg and killing people, but you should get it for playing for the team too.
tanks get renown for taking dmg, amount mitigated from teammates, taunts, guard, snares.
Healers from shields, rezzes, heals.
Dps from....well dps.(yes it seems crappy cause that's all we do but if either our renown gets a buff for that or others get less because the overall income equals out it would work)